Maciej Budkowski, Managing Directorof our company, got invited to The Business Storyteller Podcast by Piktochart.
As we can read on their website: “this is a series of conversations with inspiring leaders and entrepreneurs to share their knowledge and experience in storytelling for their business”.
You can listen to the podcast, read a transription on the episode below or download Digital Graphic Recording made by Klaudia Tolman.
You can also see the full-size DGR of the episode HERE
Wilson: Hi there, and thank you for listening to the Business Storyteller Podcast. My name is Wilson, and I’m your host for today’s episode. In today’s episode, we’d like to uncover Why Visual Communication is Important for Storytelling. And I’m delighted to be joined by the expert guest, Maciej, who is the Managing Director of ExplainVisually, a business-savvy visual thinking agency. With his wealth of experience, Maciej will be sharing his insights on this topic today.
Hi, Maciej. Welcome to the Business Storyteller Podcast. And I’m so excited to have you with us today. How are you doing?
Maciej Budkowski: Hey, I’m doing fine. I’m also very happy that I got an invitation from you. So I can elaborate a little bit on what I do. I was looking for interesting tagline for our agency and I came up with this; we are an agency that helps you get understood by the clients, by the employees, by any stakeholders.
And apart from that, I’m also creator of Luminous. It’s an independent project where I visualize words, best ideas, quotes and mental models and I share it on Twitter. If you want to, you can take a look. It’s just a for-fun project, I don’t earn anything from this, and I advise startups from time to time as well.
Wilson: Okay, so how long have you been in this industry, and how do you get to where you are at ExplainVisually?
Maciej Budkowski: Well, my visual communication journey has been pretty long. For most of my life, I thought about visual communication like most people, but it’s basically about choosing nice colors, icons, and logos, and then that’s it half. I wasn’t living in the cave, though, so I know about infographics. But I thought that their primary role is to visualize data, not ideas. So you could see, for example, how many cars has Tesla produced compared to Toyota. Or you could see an illustration of all species that died because of global warming.
Then in 2013, I read an article by Tim Urban called Why Generation Y Yuppies Are Unhappy. It was posted on a now very famous blog, Wait But Why. And Tim used stick figures and very simple drawings to explain how our huge life expectations and peer pressure can make us unhappy. I just remained an avid reader of this blog, I never thought I could do something like this myself, or work in this industry yet.
Then I worked in high tech telecom company called IS-Wireless that’s pretty big right now, by the way, and they had very complicated products. So I was responsible for Marketing and Sales. If you’re marketing, you understand what you’re selling, because otherwise you cannot do it properly.
And the products I was selling was like LTE physical layer simulator for R&D. So it was very challenging because I didn’t have telecommunications background. We used a lot of technical graphs and it was pretty new to me. And then I started to understand you can use visuals to communicate very complex thing in a way that’s easy to digest. And it’s easy to digest even for a business person, not technical person, and it was eureka moment for me.
And after that, I joined ExplainVisually where I was employee number one. And then I learned that you could use visuals to explain everything from tech products to strategy of a rocket engine factory, or compliance procedures of a national lottery. We’ve done so many projects that I learned that visual is visuals are extremely universal tool for education.
Wilson: Wow, that sounds like a great wealth of experience you’ve had, especially being the first employee of ExplainVisually. So, for someone like you who’ve been in the industry for some time, I’m sure you’ve seen the rise of visual communication. Now, if I’m to ask you this question, why is visual communication so important at the present time, and why should we care about this? What would you say to that?
Maciej Budkowski: I think it’s important because the world gets more and more complex. And the products we buy are very abstract. For example, if you ask your grandparents, what products they buy, they will tell you, “Well, I buy a bread, I buy a desk, I buy a car.” These are all things that you can see and touch, they are very tangible.
But today’s products are not tangible. They are very abstract, like paying for a subscription to stock with photos, having an app on your phone to hail a ride, or social media, or cloud. Try to explain it to your grandma, good luck! For us, they are pretty normal, because we get used to them. But some time ago, we were like grannies ourselves.
Twitter, for example, had to use explainer video to make it clear that they are not Facebook clone. It was 2007, or something like that. And Slack had to educate people how are they different than email. And they are not just like a chat that you had on websites in the ’90s. And they were pretty, not robust.
And even if you look at the first iPhone ads, everyone remembers there was Steve Jobs on this MAC Conference. And then he was saying very nice story. But if you look at first iPhone ads, you have a black background, an iPhone, and a hand. A hand clicks music, and voiceover says, “This is your music.” The hand clicks Safari, and says, “This is your web.” The hand clicks email and says, “This is your email.” And ding, ding, “Oh, this is your call.” And all of this you can have in an iPhone.
Today, you wouldn’t make an ad like that, because everyone knows what’s an iPhone. But at this very early stage, you had to explain to people what the hell is that. And every day now we have thousands of new innovative products, and they need to be explained. I may be biased, but I believe that the best way to explain them is to do it visually. And it doesn’t end here. Some strategies are very abstract, like if you want to tell your employees, “We want to make a digital transformation.” What the hell is digital transformation?
It’s like a buzzword. So with visuals, you can make it very tangible. You can show people examples, how will it work, what will change, what won’t, and so on. And also the same with procedures, they are also very, very abstract.
I think we all experienced the power of visuals, but we sort of don’t remember that. Like if you go to the school, you probably will have a food pyramid. You have to eat this amount of bread, this amount of oils, this amount of sugar. Millions of people have seen it, because it was summarized in a nice visual form. But imagine that the teacher asked you, “Oh, these are free articles about nutrition that you have to read.” Kids wouldn’t do it. And even though this food pyramids are, as far as I know, outdated for a few years now, people still use it, because it’s very sticky. It’s very easy to just digest this data and, “This is pyramid, I know what I have to do.” And yeah, I think this is why it’s important, but I have also two other ideas. One of them is that our life is not that simple.
Our grandparents, their life was like, you go to work, you cook a dinner, maybe you watch a TV, and then you go for a walk and visit friends. And they happen to be at home. You just ring a bell and your friends are there. Try to do it today, it’s almost impossible because your friends would be on yoga class, or they will go to the new Korean restaurant, or they are picking up their kids from the coding schools so they can be better prepared for the digital future.
We are very busy and our lives get pretty fragmented. So we need these information pills, we need something that’s very easy to digest. And visuals are very easy to digest.
On top of that, we get distracted pretty often. When we started, I told you that I’m going to mute my phone because otherwise you get emails, you get notifications from the apps, you get calls all the time. And if this attention is so fragile, you need a tool that helps you to get it and hold it. Because it’s easy to get attention, you can just make a clickbait article. You have a headline, people click it, you get the attention. But the main challenge is how to hold the attention for a longer period of time, so we can communicate.
If you watch the movies from the ’80s, you might have an idea they are a little bit boring, because you have very long scenes. You have a scene like for a minute, nothing happens, and two characters are just talking. And if you show this movie to someone from the younger generation, they might be, “Well, it’s so boring, nothing happens there, they are just talking.” On the other hand, you have TikTok, where they change the camera angle every three seconds. And they do it on purpose, because if we see the change, it’s easy for us to follow the plot. And if you look at new movies like The Avengers, it’s very fast in terms of how the scenes change.
Trying to wrap it up, I believe that visuals allows us to make abstract products and concepts easy to understand, and communicate them fast, and in a more engaging way so people can really follow.
Wilson: I think You define it very well, helping us to see the history of it, and also the relevance of how it used to be in the past and in the present. So I like to example of trying to explain to my grandparents, how does it look like to subscribe to an app today? And yeah, I think visuals does so much that we possibly didn’t think that it would be so helpful that it has been a part of our norm everyday. But without it, we wouldn’t be able to define a lot of abstract things. So thanks for sharing that really good history, and also the analogy that you gave to us.
So you’ve been in this for some time, and ExplainVisually itself has a very remarkable amount of projects, they’ve competed more than 300. And based on your observation and experience, how do you see visual communication affecting the future of businesses and brands? So we talked about the present earlier. Now, what do you think is going to affect the future through visual communication?
Maciej Budkowski: First of all, we have product site. Many products lost because they were poorly communicated. People just couldn’t understand the value behind them, and didn’t buy the product. And with visuals, it’s easier to communicate the value. So there’s less risk that the product won’t work well, because it’s misunderstood. And on the other hand, it might be brutal, because you couldn’t say, “Oh, it’s great, but they just don’t understand me.” Because if you communicated clearly, and they understand you, and they don’t want to buy it from you, well, maybe the product itself isn’t that great.
So I think it will be easier to innovate, or at least, maybe not even innovate, but to communicate innovation in the future. And it will be easier to get alignment among teams, because if you can communicate in a crystal clear way, what’s your strategy, what’s your goal. For people, it will be easier to engage in your project. And also visual is less culturally biased.
So when you have international teams, for them it’s easier to understand, like when something is up, typically, it means it’s better than when it’s down. When something is big, it means that there’s more of it. And this is pretty universal. Colors are pretty culturally biased. Like white is a color of grief in Japan, and then not in the West. But when it comes to shapes, they’re pretty universal. So I think it will be easier for teams to get alignment.
Wilson: Yeah, that’s a really good point, especially on how visual is very universal. And I think that perhaps could be throughout even the future. It’s pretty much the same. So yeah, thanks for sharing your insight on that based on your experience.
Now, I also know that for some of our listeners who are listening to this, they’re probably perhaps a smaller business or brand, and they have yet to embrace visual communication as part of their marketing strategy, because perhaps it’s a bit too costly. It just takes up too much skills and expertise that we do not have. But based on your experience, what is your advice to help them to at least get started somewhere with visual communication?
Maciej Budkowski: So first of all, you need to know your audience. It’s very universal in marketing, because you will communicate differently with Gen Z teenagers than Boomer banking executives. It’s pretty obvious. And it’s obvious in terms of words, and in terms of visuals as well.
The second thing is your goal. Do you want to educate, sell, or inspire? It will define how much text you will have, what do you want to highlight, what colors will serve best. And third thing is the form. If you’re a small business, you have like a wide variety of options here.
For example, when we’ve done an animation for IKEA that presented their digital transformation strategy, we’ve done it in a cartoon style, because we wanted to make it more human and nice to watch, because the subject itself was very technological and abstract. So we had a cartoon explaining, what are the goals, what do we want to achieve, and so on. But you can also go for this vector, toned-down graphics that look more serious and give you a more serious vibe. And this is also an option.
You can also use diagrams. As I told you, in this high tech company, we use diagrams. And very often, if you can diagram the thing that people sort of understand but not exactly, if you make a diagram of it, it can go viral, because you make something super clear that everyone tried to really, really understand.
If you have zero marketing budget, and I highly advise it, you can go for memes. I’m not joking. I’ve really seen that, two days ago, a job posting about a meme creator that’s paid 80,000 bucks a year for a meme artist. There are people on Twitter or even on LinkedIn that use a lot of memes to explain different subjects. And they do it pretty well. But obviously, it depends on your audience. If you target banking executives, maybe it will be harder to use memes, but it’s not impossible.
It’s a very low-budget. Obviously, you just need to a person who is good that internet. The most important one, I think, is the message, what do you want for them to understand. The thing is, if you want to make a visual, you need to really thoroughly understand the thing you’re talking about. Because it’s hard to draw something that you have this vague understanding. And we could all experience that in math classes where you try to make a matrix or draw some Cartesian diagram or whatever, and you didn’t understand it, and it was very hard to make it work.
Memes here are a great example. Memes are funny, because they can describe our reality in one picture. They’re very on point. But you cannot create a good meme unless you really understand the reality. You have to make an observation first, and then you create a visual. And the same with business visuals.
Wilson: Those are really good advice, especially that one with memes, so I guess that’s no excuse for anyone not to even try out visual communication, because that’s the simplest form. It is low costs. There are so many meme generators out there. So it’s a really interesting insight about how people are also hiring for meme generator these days.
You mentioned just now earlier that you’ve been with ExplainVisually since it began. So since it was founded, you were the first one. So in relation to visual communication for business, how has visual communication itself benefited ExplainVisually ever since it was founded?
Maciej Budkowski: Well, we’re in this nice spot that if you make a great visual for our client, it’s sort of an ad for us, we can use it to promote our services. So we are like cheating a little bit here, because most companies cannot have this kind of option. But we use a lot of visuals in our offers. So the client can understand why we are different from other options on the market. The client can understand the value behind it.
We have nice timelines. We have also a pyramid of our process like what we do and what other companies do. We use a lot of infographics in our article. They are cartoonish, so we have an artist drawing and an infographic to make an article easier to understand. And thanks to that we have content for social media, because then you can just put the infographic there. But it’s also about the attitude.
Even if we do feedback to each other very often, we do it visually. People like to draw something. Even sometimes we use a sheet of paper, and we just draw something and say, I want it to look like that. Or we use more professional approach, like we use iPad Pro, or whatever, to make it easier to grasp. And that’s how I get my insight about alignment of the teams, because when you make it visual, it’s idiot-proof. You cannot make a mistake there.
Wilson: I appreciate the fact you shared, it’s not need for marketing purposes, but alignment of teams. So I think you all really embody, ExplainVisually living and breathing visuals, even in your meetings in giving your feedback. That is really interesting. And I think that’s something that a lot of businesses and brands can consider doing, as simple as just taking down a piece of paper, and jotting down, and just drawing some of their feedbacks.
Now, so you all have also worked with a lot of notable brands. I’ve seen you’ve worked with brands such as Revolut, Carlsberg, Pfizer, IKEA, Nestle, Tesco, so many more, with hundreds of projects being done. And for all of this, I’m sure there are certain tips or similarities that you all think about whenever you work at them. Now, if you are speaking to someone who wants to learn how to do visual communication rightly, what would be your three tips for them?
Maciej Budkowski: Okay, so adding to what I said already, I will highlight once again, that you need to understand the subject thoroughly. I will repeat it like 100 times a day, just to make it sure because it’s very hard to explain something without that.
The second thing is looking for a metaphor. For example, many people use cloud services today. We use Google Drive, or maybe Amazon Web Services. But when you think about it, there’s no such thing as cloud. Heavy servers in concrete data centers around the world. It’s pretty far from the cloud in the sky. But we use the cloud as a metaphor to really grasp that your servers are somewhere there and not in your office.
Wilson: That’s true.
Maciej Budkowski: You should find such metaphors for the products, projects, or procedures. It can also be an analogy, like you can say that Spotify is the Netflix for music. And people are, “Okay, okay, I get what’s that about.” So metaphors and analogies are very helpful in visuals, because then it can be very easy for a person to grasp, what do you want to communicate.
The third thing is obviously storytelling. That’s in the title of this podcast, so I will feel very bad if I haven’t mentioned them. The visuals are a great tool to make your story stick. We see it in movies, obviously, we see it in comic books, and we see it in normal books as well.
I read Lord of the Rings… You open the book and you have descriptions like hobbits are small and chubby. Gandalf is tall, he has a long gray beard and a very stern look. And Mordor is dark, full of clouds and evil-looking mountains. And these are all visuals. They have been painted in our heads by the author. And without them it would be almost impossible to follow the plot, because you couldn’t visualize what’s going on, so your mind will wander away.
You can write your story like Tolkien and use visuals. Or you can show it like Stan Lee done with Spider Man. Or you can show it with a movie or with infographics. But without visual arts, I believe it’s impossible for a story to stick. You don’t need to draw them, you don’t need to design them. You can use your words, but you need to create these visuals so people can really see it in their heads.
And this, by the way, is why it’s so hard to read the math textbooks. If you don’t have any visuals, it’s a logical stream of information. And if you look at many corporate materials that I work a lot with, they look like that, unless there’s a person that really understand and wants to make them more easy to digest, it’s just like 20 bullet points.
People, especially now when you communicate virtually so you don’t sit in the same room, they can open Facebook in another tab, or LinkedIn, or just buying new things on Alibaba, or whatever. So I believe these three things like understanding of the subject, finding metaphor or analogy, and storytelling. These are the things that I find the most important.
Wilson: And I wholeheartedly agree with you about how without visual storytelling it’s almost impossible for the people that can’t understand what’s going on. So I like your point on metaphor and analogy, I find it really helpful. I never thought about that before, but there’s a really, really good one that you mentioned.
We are coming to almost the end of our podcasts. I’m also sure that you have been inspired by a lot of businesses and brands that you’ve seen from the outside other than your clients. So perhaps, could you share with us, what are some of your favorite examples of businesses and brands who are doing visual communication successfully this time?
Maciej Budkowski: So the first one is, my Top of Mind it’s Slack. I really like how they explained how they are different from the email and how they help to streamline communication. So you don’t have like 20 different subjects like you have an email, but you have a channel for one project, a thread for mini conversation inside the project. And it’s pretty old, I don’t think they have it on their website now, but they used the metaphor with balls that were just going from different tunnels.
So you had red ball going for red tunnel, and green ball going for green tunnel, and yellow for the yellow tunnel. So it really nicely illustrated how they can streamline the communications in the company. Even if you go to their website today, they just show their tool, how it looks like, but in a very nice, human and fun way. There’s like a screenshot from Slack, with some people saying very funny things, and this is a role model for me.
The other thing is Gong, this is a B2B company, they deliver a software that analyzes all your sales calls and tells you what works. So you can say, after 5000 sales calls, we know that when clients, these questions, we have like 10% higher chances of closing a deal.
So this is a nice product. They target sales people like VP of sales, but also normal sales people. These people are pretty relaxed and straightforward. They’re non bullshit type of people. So their style is very relaxed. They use memes, even though they are a multi-billion dollar company, they use memes, even on LinkedIn, really. Yeah, they use gifts. They have a nice colored charts. They use gifts and memes, and they have thousands, sometimes hundreds, like almost every time, but sometimes even thousands of reactions. And it’s not easy to get this kind of engagement on LinkedIn company. These are, in most cases, pretty boring. So they really know what they’re doing.
The third one is Replete. It’s like an environment for software developers, something like GitHub, more or less. Developers like this retro kind of stuff; old computers, and so on. So they went for this dynamic, fun communication. If you go to their website, there are some things that look like a video game from the ’90s. And if you type in the YouTube, the video, it’s called Announcing Replete Apps. So this is like a video game from the ’90s or maybe even ’80s. They announced the app with this kind of visual, and it was very nice for this kind of audience.
There’s also one, I don’t think it’s a business, but it’s more like a fun project. It’s amazing thing. It’s called Poolsuite FM. It’s like this very retro ’70s, ’80s. They post pictures from the ’70s and ’80s on their Instagram, they have a huge following. Even their app looks like an old computer, so you have to click something’s. This is like a beautiful understanding of visual communications. And I learned I think yesterday that they got nominated to the Apple Design Awards.
Wilson: Wow. That’s remarkable.
Maciej Budkowski: Yeah, if Apple tells you you’re good at design, probably you are.
Wilson: Yeah, definitely the standard of design. Yeah, I thought of Poolsuite FM, we also use it at Piktochart, especially our developers, they love it because of the retro feeling that it gives. And yeah, like you mentioned, Slack. I’m just recalling, like five years ago, we started using Slack, it didn’t make sense at all, like how do we use this thing? And now it’s been used by, I don’t know, almost every top companies in the world. So visual communication has clearly helped them to define their product better.
Well, thanks for sharing so many valuable insights with us today. I’m really so glad to have you on this episode to help us to understand why visual communication is important for storytelling. I think coming from an expert like yourself, it makes a lot of sense for our listeners today. And before we conclude this episode, I’d love to ask you some fun questions. I do this with every guest. These questions are related to storytelling, and I think it’s a great way for our listeners to actually learn what inspires you. So are you ready for this?
Maciej Budkowski: Yeah, go on.
Wilson: All right. So my first question for you is this, what is your favorite movie?
Maciej Budkowski: I really love Lord of the Rings. That director’s cut, like this version that lasts like 15 hours. 15 hours long version of Lord of the Rings, I really love this movie. I mean, it’s perfect. But from a storytelling point of view, I think the best movie I’ve ever seen apart from this very serious movies like Shawshank Redemption, or something like that.
I really do believe that Avengers: Infinity War is the best entertainment style movie in terms of storytelling ever. I will tell you why. When you get the opening scene, they are in a spacecraft. You have Thor who just defeated the very powerful, like his sister on his planet, which is like super powerful, the god of thunder, and so on.
You have Hulk who is also like the most powerful person in the Avengers team. But Thor and Hulk sometimes debate over that. You have Loki, who is also super powerful, the whole Avengers team couldn’t beat him. So you think, these are the most badass characters in the whole universe, and they get beaten up like kids by Thanos.
So from the storytelling point of view, you see, I thought these are super badass characters and I will see, if he has defeated them so easily, how on earth are they going to win with him? You have so much tension there, because you’re like, there’s no way they are going to beat him. If three most powerful people from their team has lost, no way. And now you open this curiosity gap in your audience, and they’re like, “Damn, I really want to see how they’re going to do it at the end of the whole movie.”
So for me, this opening that storytelling masterpiece. Maybe it’s pretty nerdy of me, but yeah, I really do believe that.
Wilson: Yeah, I mean, it’s 10 years in the making for this whole storyline to come together. I remember the excitement of everyone watching the premiere and everyone going crazy over it. Recently, they celebrated I think their second year as well of Infinity War, so amazing.
Maciej Budkowski: Yeah. And the thing you’re mentioning that’s also totally true, how they connected all these stories, I think like 20 movies in one. How this plot, these characters, how they made the dynamic between some of them. Some of them liked each other, some of them not. Some of them inspired each other, and so on. So this is a masterpiece. They won’t get an Oscar because Oscars never goes to these kind of movies, but I really do believe they should get an Oscar for screenwriting.
Wilson: Yeah. I mean, the amount of fans that they have following this franchise is a testament, so it’s really cool. All right, so that is movie, right? That is one form of storytelling. What about your favorite book? You mentioned a few books. So what would be your favorite book?
Maciej Budkowski: I have two, I don’t know which one should I choose? I will choose the one that’s easier to read for an average person, because the one that I really like is pretty niche, so maybe not many people will like it. But this is like a series of books. It’s called The First Law. It was written by Joe Abercrombie, the British writer, and it’s a fantasy book. But it’s something like, if you mix Lord of the Rings, like the whole epicness of the story and so on. With more realistic, maybe cynical view from House of Cards, you will get this book.
This is very interesting in terms of the characters, the plot, it’s not so obvious. It destroys a lot of tropes. Like if you have a hero, he’s not like Captain America that super nice, and everybody loves him, but he has his bad behaviors. One of the main characters just killed his friend, and you’re like, what the hell? More or less like in Game of Thrones, where it’s so unexpectedly, everyone can die in every scene. So this is more like that.
Wilson: Okay, nice. Well, I’m sure our listeners would love to check out some of your recommendations that you’ve to us. Now, I’m just going to wrap this up by asking you some quickfire questions. So basically, it’s just this or that question. And you have less than five seconds to respond to them. Are you ready?
Maciej Budkowski: Okay. Okay.
Wilson: All right. So my first question to you is this, would you prefer theater or cinema?
Maciej Budkowski: Cinema.
Wilson: Cinema. Okay. This is the second one, would you prefer reading or writing?
Maciej Budkowski: Reading, but hard question.
Wilson: This is probably a bit tricky. Social media, would it be Facebook, or Twitter for you?
Maciej Budkowski: Twitter.
Wilson: Twitter, okay. This is interesting, because I know you like to watch movies. What about, Netflix or YouTube?
Maciej Budkowski: Netflix because you can get really sucked into the world. YouTube is more fragmented.
Wilson: Yes. And I think they do series very well as well.
Maciej Budkowski: Yeah.
Wilson: Okay. This is for like all the movie fans out there. Avatar of Star Wars?
Maciej Budkowski: Well, Star Wars because I haven’t watched Avatar.
Wilson: Oh, you have to.
Maciej Budkowski: Yeah, this is on my list for, I don’t know, like 10 years, because I think even more. I haven’t watched it when it was in cinema, so I couldn’t see it in 3D So then I felt, I don’t want to watch in 2D because it wouldn’t be that cool.
Wilson: That’s a reason why they have the highest grossing film of all time. All right, and finally is this. Would you prefer action movie, or would you prefer documentaries?
Maciej Budkowski: Action movies.
Wilson: Action movies. Nice. Well, that was fun, and I certainly enjoyed your responses. I’m sure our listeners can also find out what really inspires you as a visual communicator. So before we wrap up, I’m sure some of listeners would like to stay connected with you. So how can they reach you?
Maciej Budkowski: Okay, well, you can type in ExplainVisually in Facebook, Twitter, Google, I guess as well LinkedIn, and find us on social media. And also me, Maciej Budkowski. I think it will be hard to write it because it’s a Polish name, but it will be written in the title, I guess.
You can also follow Luminous. This is my product on Twitter. I do it for fun, and many people find it fun as well, so I think this is the best way to stay in touch.
Wilson: Nice. Yeah, I’m really keen to check out Luminous. And also for our listeners to also follow all the pages that you mentioned. So once again, thank you Maciej for coming on this episode of the Business Storyteller Podcast. I’m really grateful for having you to share your insights with us today. And that’s all for today’s episode, until the next one. Thanks for joining us.
Maciej Budkowski: Yeah, thanks a lot. It was very interesting and enjoyable. I hope that our listeners will also see it that way.
Wilson: Yeah, I’m sure they will. Thanks Maciej.
Maciej Budkowski: Thank you.
Wilson: We hope you find this episode valuable. And if you haven’t already, be sure to check out Piktochart for more visual storytelling tips. Piktochart is an easy to use visual content maker with more than 500 templates for you to choose from, ranging from infographics, presentation, report, social media graphics, and more. Join more than eight million people who are already using Piktochart to craft amazing visual stories. That’s all for today on the Business Storyteller Podcast, and we’ll catch you at the next one.